There is actually logic for the Creator of everything.
The first part is obvious. But it's the second part that is amazing:
First part :
Does everything we see come from nothing or from something?Obviously it cannot come from nothing. Therefore it must come from Something.
(feel free to challenge this)
Second part :
So what is that Something and how is its nature?
1- Since everything came from it then it follows that it must be eternal. Otherwise it would have to have come from something else. But then it would not be the thing that everything comes from. So therefore it must be eternal.
[Note that it's important that this concept is fully digested before proceeding]
2- If you agree that it is eternal then that means it exists without having been created. So imagine something that exists that hasn't actually been created ! Strange isn't it.
Is that possible you may ask? How many things do we know that exist without being first created? None? Maybe time? Maybe space. Maybe the Universe? ?
So that's 4 out of the billions of things that exist. But then time, space and the Universe could have all come from that something we talked about. So it could be that only that something is like that.
Ok so we are now looking at this eternity concept and seeing what it means; when applied to an entity, or thing. ie its not been created ... yet it exists.
And must exist as otherwise we are saying that everything came from nothing and that is not possible. (If possible then how? )
(Note that we havent said it must be a physical object with physical content etc. The nature of its composition has not been entered into thus far. It could for example be a spiritual entity ie without position or volume in space. Wierd.)
3- (if you're still following this then excellent. It's all relatively new stuff)
So if we accept that everything came from something that is not created and is eternal then what can be said about its properties or attributes /characteristics ?
So if we accept that everything came from something that is not created and is eternal then what can be said about its properties or attributes /characteristics ?
Well if something hasn't been created then it means that no one has designed it.
And that means that no one has placed any limits on it. Because when you design something you put limits on it eg its colour, size , power , knowledge, strength, life and all characteristics. All its parameters are unlimited when it is not created. This is the wierd thing. So what does it mean to have something that is unlimited in all parameters?
Its amazing!
It means we have something that literally knows everything and can really and seriously do really everything. Its an amazing concept. How many things do we know that can literally do ALL things? None!
But this Thing can.
4- Ok, its also free so therefore it can do anything it likes. It is unlimited in life and so it can live the way it pleases. It is completely free to live its life how it wants to. It also has unlimited intelligence and awareness etc (all the things we have it will have and more , and to an unlimited extent too.) It is getting more and more strange/weird isn't it.
5- Has it made any contact with us ?, it's creatures. Maybe one of its billions of creatures in one of its billions and billions of creature worlds that it had decided to create?
How can we find out?
Have there been for instance people coming to us telling us they are sent by It to us?
Maybe they are called prophets or messengers.
Has there been a message come from It to us?
If so what?
All these are questions that can be asked.
Are there any answers?
You have now entered the world that I live in.
And this I believe is the world that believers in this Thing live in.
An amazing world where everything is possible and there is literally nothing that is not possible. Because that Thing can literally do everything.
Making universes is nothing for It. Easy as doing nothing. Because It has unlimited power. So It can make billions of them and there would be no issue. Each may be a seed for a different world that would hold different creatures. It could create an unlimited number of creature types.
So where are we ?
Reality or fantasy.
Or is reality actually like fantasy but we are not aware ? ?
There is more to say but I think this far is enough for the moment.
Your comments please!
[Extra logic exists to say why It would be one and not two or three etc.
Also logic for why It is a Spirit rather than a Being that has a body.
But later on.
And obviously there is the knowledge that I don't know and may never know. You'll have to dig for that yourselves !]
(My comment is not representing LFNS Helpline, now called LFNS Help, by the way. Could not comment without selecting a 'profile', ah well.....)
ReplyDeleteJust to say that we evolved via various cosmic forces, and not via any 'god'.
'Gods' were invented by ignorant humans, someone called it "the first police force" ! And it worked for them....Many of us now know better : gods do not exist, and although you can't prove a negative, we are pretty certain that they don't.....It's all escalated over centuries, and taken as true by far too many gullible people. We as humans ought to rely mostly on research, knowledge, science, psychology, etc., etc., and not fall for mumbo-jumbo. Please read Dawkins 'God Delusion', the best £20 I ever spent. Thank you.
Yeah okay Ali but until you find a way to demonstrably measure this eternal something it's still just an assertion made without evidence & what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You say you "want an impartial science" well that's what you've got. Provide scientific evidence for this eternal something rather than just saying it over & over again & then science won't be able to dismiss it without counter evidence.
ReplyDeleteMr. Ali you are right there must be a creator who made the universe otherwise you might believe that a watch has been made by chance but if he created the universe how can we realise his identity using our minds unless he himself sends us a book and so he did but gave us as much knowledge as we could realise
ReplyDeleteI know there's a God. I just wish he'd make life a little easier for me. But, from what I've learned so far is. I think I would pervert myself and become even more lost than I am.
ReplyDeleteYour first part:
ReplyDeleteThis assumes temporal cause and effect to always be true, but that doesn't really make sense outside of spacetime. It's a headscratcher I suppose, but the only sense I can make of it is that things outside of time are not created or destroyed, I hate using the following phrase, but I would say they just 'are'.
There's also an interesting argument that anything thing must exist in something else until it exists in nothing. Nothing is the only way to resolve the infinite regression problem you encounter otherwise, unless you suggest infinite regression is possible.
Your second part:
1) I can't see how things can come from something eternal because to me that suggests a change in the eternal, which violates the concept. However something could exist within eternity.
2) I wasn't sure what to say here.
3) (I really don't think that it's new, though I do think it's worth chatting about) I think it's safe to say a human didn't design the universe or cosmos, but it's hard to use words like design in anything other than a rather anthropocentric way.
I think whether the universe knows itself, whether the cosmos is finite or infinite, is the most interesting part of your 3rd point, but I don't see how you've demonstrated whether it does or doesn't. I do enjoy a debate on panpsychism.
4) 'What is freedom?' might be a good interesting question to test your idea of whether the cosmos is free or not. The idea that the cosmos is infinite does seem somewhat untestable to me at least.
I don't think it's unreasonable to postulate a panpsychic superconscious in infinitiy, but I think such a thing is unprovable from a human perspective, much like materialism or solipsism.
5) Is the idea of a superconscious universe trying to contact the individual a bit like me trying to have a conversation with my liver? It's a part that makes me, right? Your idea doesn't seem to make much sense in that regard, but it's not like I don't have a relationship with my liver, I clearly do. If I drink too much alcohol and abuse it enough it will kill me, or I will kill me, it all depends on how you look at it.
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I think you need to be careful in structuring your ideas more to make arguments rather than sliding into making assertions if you want to progress in a debate, but I enjoyed thinking about what you wrote.
Who said its outside time?
DeleteSecond yes infinite regression means there is something eternal. ie not nothing.
Who said its outside time?
ReplyDeleteSecond yes infinite regression means there is something eternal. ie not nothing.